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Post by Snacs on Mar 4, 2019 20:06:54 GMT -8
That's due to specialization. If your attack rate with daggers is 1/1, then it becomes 2/1 when dual-wielding. If it is 3/2, it becomes 5/2. If it is 2/1, then it becomes 4/1.
? ? ? If it was 2/1 and then dual-wielding occurred, it would never go above 3/1, explicitly by Raw. You can only get a single extra attack via TWF. And again, I'm not trying to apply Two-weapon fighting to the claws, i'm applying it to an off-hand club attack. If it was specialization Runt would have 3/2 with claws, not 2/1 because he's level 5, not 6/7, and he'd have penalties to iterative attacks consistent with dual-wielding(I mean, he doesn't, because I took the feats to negate them, but they're not in the racial abilities.
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Post by Daos on Mar 4, 2019 21:06:58 GMT -8
Oh, yeah, it seems you're right. I guess it's a good thing I've never run a game that got high enough in level for that to ever come up, or that would have been embarrassing.
Anyway, that aside, I have to say--I've never had anyone argue with me for five hours to let them keep a critical fumble. That's definitely a new one in my book. Possibly in any book.
But regardless, I feel that allowing a level 5 character to make 3 attacks per round (or 4 with natural fighting!) is overpowering. I mean, he already has a base AC of 0, immunity to disease and magic resistance. It's not like he's doomed without being able to dish out 3-4 attacks per round, as well. So my original ruling stands.
You can continue arguing with me on this, but I don't think we're going to get anywhere and I'd like to resolve the combat round before I go to bed for the night. Sorry.
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Post by Ezeze on Mar 4, 2019 21:26:00 GMT -8
I've never had anyone argue with me for five hours to let them keep a critical fumble. That's definitely a new one in my book. ROFL! Yeah, that's Snacs If you are invoking Rule 0 then you are invoking Rule 0 and there is sh*t all to argue against that with <3
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Post by Snacs on Mar 4, 2019 21:33:21 GMT -8
But regardless, I feel that allowing a level 5 character to make 3 attacks per round (or 4 with natural fighting!) is overpowering. I mean, he already has a base AC of 0, immunity to disease and magic resistance. It's not like he's doomed without being able to dish out 3-4 attacks per round, as well. So my original ruling stands. That's fair. Two attacks it is .
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Post by Snacs on Mar 4, 2019 23:31:30 GMT -8
So to make sure I'm clear on this, you're arguing that two weapon fighting means you get two attacks per round, regardless of how many weapons you actually have? Like, if someone chopped off one of Runt's hands, he could still make two claw attacks per round? Or if he had two clubs and lost one, he could still strike twice with the one club? Because that doesn't make sense to me. I didn't see this post originally. It's not important now since DM fiat, but for the sake of clarity, I was arguing that if I had a club I could attack twice in combat with in one hand and a dagger in my off hand, I'd make two club attacks, then a dagger attack. if my dagger-hand was chopped off, I wouldn't get the third attack, but I could still bludgeon someone twice. By the way the racial line is written, I could claw twice with the same hand(two attacks in one round, one at the start, one later after everything else has resolved), or claw+bite(since the racial ability doesn't seem to care either way which, and again the second would resolve after everything else ), and club someone with the off-hand club, which was my argument
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Post by GravityEmblem on Mar 5, 2019 14:00:51 GMT -8
Well, 5 hours real time, over a series of sporadic posts.
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Rax
Dicemaster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Rax on Mar 5, 2019 14:42:31 GMT -8
For what it's worth, since my question set off the whole debate, the Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium has this to say about Baaz draconians:
While not definitive, to me it seems clear that Baaz draconians get two attacks if they use both hands or one hand and one bite to attack. They can't use one hand to get two claw attacks. This is certainly the way I've always seen such entries interpreted in other Monstrous Compendiums. In this case there's also supporting evidence in the Sivak draconian entry:
Here it states outright that the attack and damage line represent attacks with both claws and a tail swipe.
Further, as can be seen from the MC entries, the default is that a draconian either uses its claws or a weapon, not both. In addition, the two-weapon fighting rules really don't address how natural weapon attacks interact with weapon attacks, so that's always going to be up to the DM.
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Post by Ezeze on Mar 5, 2019 18:39:38 GMT -8
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Post by Daos on Mar 5, 2019 18:42:42 GMT -8
There is some kind of bad roll pandemic going on all over the site, not just this game. Over in my Octhania game, the party is about a level stronger than this one, and they are getting creamed by a bunch of level 0 NPCs with 3-6 HP (granted, the party has been relieved of weapons and armor, but still). The only thing keeping everyone alive at this point is that my bad luck remains consistent.
(Anyway, if the party does lose this fight, then aside from being embarrassed, they'll be fine. It's non-lethal combat anyway.)
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Post by GravityEmblem on Mar 6, 2019 4:20:36 GMT -8
I’m telling you, the bugs are the key. They either do 2 damage/round while completely putting that character out of commission, or do 4 damage and give them some sizable penalties.
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Post by Snacs on Mar 7, 2019 5:25:51 GMT -8
Hey! There's some good rolls finally
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Post by Daos on Mar 9, 2019 16:27:15 GMT -8
[OOC: This campaign is cursed. That's what. At least four fumbles and three crits on their end in like 3 rounds?] What's particularly frustrating for me, is I designed this first encounter as a test to gather data so I can properly calibrate the death match. I want the death match to be tough, but not impossible. Wiping out the party in the first chapter would be pretty pointless. Since 2E has no CR system at all, you just have to sort of eyeball it. But the rolls are so weird in this battle, I think they might skew the data. I can't be sure how much of the party's difficulty with these sligs is based on bad luck.
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Post by GravityEmblem on Mar 9, 2019 17:12:29 GMT -8
I can try to rig the dice roller, if that would make you feel better.
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Post by Daos on Mar 9, 2019 17:22:13 GMT -8
No, it really would not.
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Post by Ezeze on Mar 10, 2019 6:14:37 GMT -8
I can try to rig the dice roller, if that would make you feel better. (we'll call this Plan B )
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