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Post by GreyWolfVT on Apr 14, 2019 3:39:38 GMT -8
So not sure if anyone knows this but I am in a podcast that talks about D&D focusing mostly on 2e information however some or most of what we talk about could apply to any edition for the most part. So at any rate today we plan to record and the topic is about Bards. I surprised the other guys on the podcast when I told them in 26 years of playing D&D I have never once played a bard nor have i seen anyone run one other than maybe 1-2 times have I been in a game where someone was playing a bard. I surely can't be the only one that has experienced this right? Sure enough I did ask this question on Unseenservant's forums and sure enough there are others that have expereined even discussed why a bard is not commonly seen or played and why some folks are not drawn to try and even create one. Personally myself I have very little interest in playing a bard they're high charisma would dictate them to be the spokesman for the group and the one expected to do a lot of the talking, negotiating "charming" of others. Not to mention the other aspects of a bard. Personally I have always seen the bard to be either like the minstrels on Monty Python's Holy Grail movie or like a Herald in the Knight's Tale movie. That role is certainly not me. As I am sure there are others that feel similar. Sure a bard has a lot of other aspects to it that are very handy useful and supporting to an adventuring party but still how often do you see them in a game?
Thoughts? Feel free this is meant to be an open opinion/discussion topic.
Essentially one of the other guys on the podcast was trying to indicate that a bard was a common class because it is in the PHB and is played far more frequently or commonly than some of the additional classes that were not in the PHB like a Barbarian, or a psionic, assassin, or many of the others that appeared later on in skills & powers or some of the complete guide/handbooks. Or even in newer editions of the game. I tried to counter that by saying just because it is in the PHB does not mean it is rolled up or played all that often. All the groups I played in growing up would usually stick to the classes of Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Mage/Wizard, and Ranger. Im sure others have had similar experiences.
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Post by GravityEmblem on Apr 14, 2019 4:15:03 GMT -8
I mean, I’m currently playing a bard in LS:O. Yes, it has a lot less combat than other games on this site, but still.
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Rax
Dicemaster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Rax on Apr 14, 2019 6:14:43 GMT -8
I'm playing a bard too, in the Past Glory game. However, that's definitely a new development for me. For one thing, the Complete Bard's Handbook is in play, and with it kits that completely alter the base class as well as multi-classing rules that enable my character to be a fighter/bard. Without them, I might not have gone for this concept.
There's also a thirty-year gap between my current spate of 2e gaming and the last time I played. Which means I was a teenager when the choice to play a bard was on the table last time. Back when 2e came out, I was excited that the bard had become its own class, but once I got to playing, I always ended up playing some other class or a multi-class combo that got me something similar to a bard without the "fluff" baggage of being a wandering minstrel (e.g. a fighter/thief or fighter/mage). This had nothing to do with not wanting to be a "face" character, since even 2e didn't rely on class abilities to be charming/diplomatic/threatening. I just didn't like all the abilities of the class and felt pigeonholed into being some sort of wandering entertainer.
I don't recall anyone else picking a bard as their first choice either, though I do recall a bard or two being created on occasion. These days I'm more broad-minded, but I still prefer having a PC that can fight well in melee, which means I almost always end up picking a concept that includes fighter or another warrior subclass. Rogue THAC0 and probably average strength for much of the game just doesn't tick my "competent melee combatant" box.
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Post by GreyWolfVT on Apr 14, 2019 8:26:45 GMT -8
Well mind you i am talking pre 3e for D&D for the most part it was not entirely easy to even make a bard especially if you think before 2e. Heck some of those editions a Bard wasn't even a class. Also if it were not for Daos and how he rules on things most DM's it would be significantly harder to even make half the characters we have in the games on here depending upon what edition it is. Thank you for the added opinions/information. I'm enjoying this running discussion.
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Post by Daos on Apr 14, 2019 11:13:11 GMT -8
I am very rarely ever a PC, so I haven't played many bards. I've NPC'd quite a few of them, though. Although of the five games I am currently running, three of them have bards in them (Gontoria, Phandelver and Past Glory), they are usually pretty rare in my games. I think part of that is their high stat requirements (at least, as far as 2E goes). I think another part of it, as mentioned above, is their perception as minstrels. I know some players look down at the idea of playing music in combat. There's an old joke that goes something like, "If you could be Bruce Lee, Merlin, Aragorn or Arthur Pendragon, why the heck would you choose to be Ricky Martin?"
But overall, in my own experience, I think the main explanation for why bards aren't more popular is that they are straight up support characters. And most players don't want to be support characters. Something I've noticed is that when players do choose to play bards, they usually do not play them as bards. They play them as fighters or mages. They melee on the front-line or just cast blaster spells (taking advantage of the fact that bards gain levels faster than mages do). Rarely do they use their bard song/inspiration, if ever. Then, when this doesn't work out, rather than realize they are playing the bard in a way that it wasn't intended, they conclude that the class just isn't very good.
I've seen this with other support classes, too. Rarely do people play clerics as actual healers, instead trying to play them as front-line warriors or outright blasters. Druids, Abjurers, and Diviners are also rarely seen in my games.
Sometimes this phenomenon extends to even include tanks. It's not uncommon for me to start a new game, have everyone roll up their characters, and then realize there isn't person in the group who can take a hit, as all of them are built for DPS only. An entire party of glass cannons.
For my own part, I enjoy support classes, especially healers, so it's never been an issue for me. I usually wind up making NPCs that serve as tanks, healers and support to help fill those gaps in the group.
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Post by GreyWolfVT on Apr 14, 2019 11:56:16 GMT -8
I don't mind the support role myself however for me if i am going to be support role I lean towards Cleric or Druid. Bards I just don't know that I would ever run at least not in older editions perhaps in 5th sure.
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Post by HorizonsDream on Apr 14, 2019 14:04:18 GMT -8
I think I've played a bard twice, and it isn't really an easy class to play. I like the idea behind the bard, but in battles there are times you feel a little more useless I guess. Though, that does mean that you can try to find more creative solutions to whatever you are trying to handle. It is also kind of easy to forget about all of the bard's abilities too.
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Post by Daos on Apr 15, 2019 13:24:35 GMT -8
Also, to be clear, my earlier post wasn't meant as a condemnation or criticism. At it's core, D&D is a heroic fantasy game. It's wish fulfillment. I get why someone would not want to be a support character in a group of heroes.
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Post by GreyWolfVT on Apr 15, 2019 13:35:13 GMT -8
Also, to be clear, my earlier post wasn't meant as a condemnation or criticism. At it's core, D&D is a heroic fantasy game. It's wish fulfillment. I get why someone would not want to be a support character in a group of heroes. I didn't think it was condemnation or criticism. But the way the bard is support wise is not entirely something everyone is willing to roleplay either. High Charisma you're dedicated to be the spokesman for the group hands down at least in old edition games that'd be the general way things work typically. That and I wouldn't want to be the "travelling" minstrel that does little fighting and mostly just tells the tales of the adventuring party. But that is merely me being me.
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Post by Daos on Apr 18, 2019 12:14:58 GMT -8
Come to think of it, while I've played two Bards before, there is one core class I've never played--the Druid. Not really sure why. I'm not much of an outdoorsy person, I suppose, and I prefer to play Good characters, whereas (at least in core 2E), Druids must be TN.
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Post by GreyWolfVT on Apr 18, 2019 17:17:42 GMT -8
Come to think of it, while I've played two Bards before, there is one core class I've never played--the Druid. Not really sure why. I'm not much of an outdoorsy person, I suppose, and I prefer to play Good characters, whereas (at least in core 2E), Druids must be TN. I can say the same up until about a year or two back I only ever attempted to play a Druid once but with the weapon restrictions and the "picking on" I received I didn't play one for more than a session or two back in HS. Druids are pretty cool even back in 2e. I recall saving a party a couple times by entangling an entire group of foes more than once.
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Post by Daos on Apr 22, 2019 13:08:05 GMT -8
Also, not a core class, but one other class I've never played before is Psionic; not even as an NPC. I've never even seen a game with them or that allowed them, for that matter. I don't have any books on them, so I'm completely ignorant in how they even work.
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Post by GreyWolfVT on Apr 23, 2019 2:18:29 GMT -8
That's one I have in common with you Daos I never played a Psionic and I don't usually allow them in my games either.
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Post by Daos on Apr 24, 2019 12:21:48 GMT -8
How about races? I've played every core 2E race at least once, although some of them were pretty brief. (Most games I'm in as a player do not last very long.) I also had an aasimar in a Planescape game once (that was also quite brief). For 5E, though, so far I've only played a human, a half-elf (brief) and dwarf (even briefer).
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Post by GreyWolfVT on Apr 24, 2019 12:30:56 GMT -8
I'm strange when it comes to races I've never intentionally made or played a halfling. I just don't like em. Dwarf, gnome, human, elf, half-elf and half-orc i have played/created as pc's.
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