HorizonsDream
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Post by HorizonsDream on Apr 27, 2021 11:30:33 GMT -8
As the only woman here, I'm having some issues with the whole rape thing. I personally think that a woman claiming to be raped so she can keep her child is illogical. There are many women that do have children after being raped, but many of them end up being put up for adoption. There is a lot of psychological trauma that happens to a woman after being raped, and while it isn't the child's fault (they are an innocent in the whole situation), the child would kind of be like a constant reminder as to what happened to the woman (hence why a lot of those children end up being put up for adoption). It is a complicated situation at best. Though that is also more modern society.
Looking at this from a medieval type of society, if a woman openly claims that she was raped and keeps the child, there would be numerous rumors about the woman and the child. She would have a hard time finding a husband that would be willing to claim that child (and any man that does end up marrying this woman and claiming the child would probably be less than desirable). It would not be an easy thing.
My solution would be that our founding lady is already engaged to someone. She ends up having an affair with whoever, and ends up pregnant. Instead of saying she was raped or that she had an affair, she speeds up her engagement to whoever she is engaged to and pretends that her pregnancy is the result of the marriage. The child is a bastard, but unlike all of Cersi's children, it isn't noticeable that the child doesn't belong to the husband. Legitimacy wouldn't be a problem. Sometime later on it is somehow revealed that the son/daughter is a bastard, and that can be the scandal. It seems more logical for a woman to quickly get married to someone so she can pretend that her pregnancy is the result of that marriage rather than claiming rape to keep a child.
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Post by Igordragonian on Apr 27, 2021 11:37:16 GMT -8
If I get the gist, the founding father was of lower startus then the founding matron. For some reason I imagine kind knight, maybe even a hedge knight like Dunken The Tall.
I think that high born lady, who has concieved a bastard willingly, could keep him if she is strong willed enough. And it could be a motivation to start a new house. And it works especialy if the husband agree to recongnize the bastard as his own. They don't have internet. Only people who would really be obssesed with history of minor houses would find out. (that if we don't want to include rape into the story, which I also can relate to that.)
As for name- if we are going with this kind of story, maybe we can base the name on the mother's original house. Like we have Stark and Karstark. So, in the area that some of you are seemed intrested, we have house Swann so maybe Barswann or Swannette, Swannsong.
You dont have to take my ideas, just trying to mittigate
edit: got ninjaed. and I think Horizon's idea works.
edit2: There also House Dondarion.. if we want to be connected to major magical shengians.
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Rax
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Post by Rax on Apr 28, 2021 12:10:48 GMT -8
Yes, my original intention was for the founding father to be lower status but actually caring for the lady, seeking marriage both for personal reasons and for the benefit of being allowed to form his noble house with the backing of her higher status family.
However, given how much consternation the general idea has generated, I would suggest switching tack to another form of scandal instead. Horizons' suggestion sort of misses the point that the scandal is supposed to be what leads to our house being founded. While it would be scandalous to have the lady's child revealed as a bastard, in this scenario, the house already exists.
How about one of my other suggestions - our house was founded when the founding father won land and titles from an idiot nobleman? It's not as dramatic, but if the "loser house" is still around we have a built in conflict right there.
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HorizonsDream
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Post by HorizonsDream on Apr 28, 2021 17:00:06 GMT -8
This is zero's idea.
Instead of it being due to possible rape, change it to an affair. The woman was abandoned by the man that she had an affair with, so to cover up the whole mess and to allow her to keep her child, she marries the founding father and they create the house.
The idea doesn't have to be abandoned completely. With a couple of the details changed, it still makes sense and works out with a scandal building the house.
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Post by Igordragonian on Apr 29, 2021 8:18:09 GMT -8
Maybe it could be combined? Maybe the founding father was a swashbuckler adventurer/mercenary who won lands in gambles and the same lord's daughter was abandoned pregnant, so he married her off to the adventurer guy. Maybe someone like Bronn.
so as the meme say "Why not both" maybe the scandal is double, and the house try to hide the depth of the founding's scandal
edit: Maybe the first lover was a blackfyre rebel.
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Post by Daos on Apr 29, 2021 14:25:16 GMT -8
Haven't heard from Mag yet. Do they have anything to add?
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Post by Zero Prime on Apr 29, 2021 15:55:19 GMT -8
Or we could leave the scandal behind us, as young members of the House we may not even know. It could well be a family secret.
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HorizonsDream
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Post by HorizonsDream on Apr 29, 2021 16:18:45 GMT -8
How far back is the history going? I'm assuming that the founding father and such are like great great great grandparents or something.
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Post by Zero Prime on Apr 29, 2021 16:49:20 GMT -8
The House was founded 100 to 150 years ago, so that's likely five or six generations on the outside.
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Mag
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Post by Mag on Apr 29, 2021 23:20:41 GMT -8
I apologize for my radio silence, life has been extra busy lately. I expect this to change and return to a normal laid back pace later next week. Because of that I haven't had the time yet to read everything that has been posted, and thus I have yet to post anything. I do have a character idea, which Dragonian is aware of. I currently do not wish to elaborate too much more, until it is finalized. For that purpose though I do wish to know about your red lines. I'm not intending for anything too graphic, but in the spirit of ASoIaF, Martin has little to no limits in his world. Not all players are ok with everything that has went down in the books, or simply wish to replay that in a game, and so I wish to know what are your X cards on this game? For transparancy's sake, the general idea of the character I want to play is, a house member, that was held as a prisoner/ward in a Dornish house. Similar to how Theon was held as a prisoner/ward. I do not have all the details yet, but think of a character that was taken at a very young age and now returns many years later. The less conventional part I was referring to earlier is that I possibly want them have a romantic affair with another family member, quite possibly blood related. Mostly due to growing up remotely from the family.
I believe I have passed the general idea in a satisfactory manner, I do apologize if I was unclear at times, as English is not my native tongue and I was writing this entire post with a few things in mind that I simply could not find the right words for.
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Rax
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Post by Rax on Apr 30, 2021 11:52:11 GMT -8
The House was founded 100 to 150 years ago, so that's likely five or six generations on the outside. That's a bit too far back. The normal starting year in SIFRP is 298 AC and the first Blackfyre rebellion was in 196 AC, so 102 years ago. The War of the Ninepenny Kings, which hardly qualifies as a rebellion against the crown, occurred 40 years ago. The other three rebellions occurred in 212 AC, 219 AC and 236 AC, so within a span of about 25 years starting 86 years ago.
Regarding the house founding, can I just make it absolutely clear that at no time have I ever advocated that the "founding lady" should have been the victim of rape. I feel that this keeps coming up again and again and I'm not sure why that is. Even in my original suggestion here I made it clear that it would have been a cover story, nothing more. As it is, if a bastard is to be part of the story of the founding of our house, I'd prefer to simplify matters as much as possible. Bastards are dime a dozen in Westeros, even among the higher lords. Heck, for most of the book series, Jon Snow is believed by everybody to be Eddard Stark's bastard son. Robert Baratheon has loads of them and doesn't care who knows it.
So let's keep it simple - a major Stormlands lord sired a bastard son and ended up ceding him some land so he could found his new house. This could be because the bastard was successful enough that it was fair to reward him, or just because he was the lord's favourite, but naturally his legitimate children didn't look kindly upon sharing their patrimony with a bastard.
Welcome to the boards! For my part, I find Martin goes overboard on general misery and nastiness in his books, but out of the many things that annoy me, incestuous relationships isn't high up on the list. I mean, I find Cersei and Jaime's relationship superfluous and unconvincing, but having it in the books isn't a red line for me. The same goes for Westerosi society being horribly classist, misogynistic and oppressive of gays.
I accept that these things are part of the world Martin created, and part of the draw of playing SIFRP is to do a little culture gaming and building a character that isn't firmly rooted in a modern view of right and wrong. With that said, I don't want to play in a game where the world is an endless parade schemers, murderers and rapists, and any sign of virtue is treated as weakness. As I said above, I think Martin went too far in doing the good guys down.
Ideally, being honourable according to the public standards of Westerosi society should earn the PCs genuine respect from nobles and smallfolk. Being merciful towards enemies shouldn't always be an excuse for a knife in the back. Treating one's smallfolk well should earn their loyalty and support, and so on. Having a loving and mutually respectful relationship with one's wife or husband shouldn't be an oddity.
But when playing the game, I think it's perfectly legitimate for even a "good guy" to be dismissive of openly gay people (especially men), buying sex while at the same time belittling sex workers as whores, and showing little understanding of women who break with expected gender roles. There's no need to constantly act out such views or even voice them, but having a character that rebels against every unpleasant aspect of Westeros as described in the books just makes no sense to me.
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HorizonsDream
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Post by HorizonsDream on Apr 30, 2021 15:50:11 GMT -8
I pointed out, from a woman's point of view, that the cover story is illogical. Either way, we aren't seeing eye to eye on that idea, so I'll go with the bastard starting the house after being given some land. I'm cool with that. I'm not really sure who you are asking when it comes to what we are comfortable with, but you are talking about your character. What you do with your character isn't really any of my business. I don't even have an idea for a character yet, so you are way ahead of me when it comes to that.
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Mag
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Post by Mag on May 1, 2021 5:23:06 GMT -8
HorizonsDream
I'm asking everyone, really. Sure, it's my character, but a game is about everyone's fun. If I play a mysoginist rapist I'm going to assume at least some of you won't find it fun, and that's really not the goal here. I'm not so petty as to say 'if I can't play the 1st idea that came to my head, the way I want to, I'm not going to play', which is exactly why I'm asking if this is going to raise an issue with ALL the players. I read your opinion on the intro of the house and about the rape aspect of it. Behind the screen we're all humans (except maybe Igor, I think he's a dragon.) with opinions and beliefs, some of us might not be ok with certain topics. If me playing a character that is romantically involved with their own family members is an issue to anyone, then I won't play such a character.
Rax
I tend to agree with you that Martin went overboard with some things, to the point where it doesn't feel natural. That being said, before shit hit the fan for the Starks, most of their household was intact and built on respect. It works, it just doesn't tend to work when TOO much politics are involved (as in King's Landing, in the King's court.) People of power tend to attract opportunists. Some opportunists don't think twice before stepping on others to gain what they desire. I think that even though things went a little too far, Martin going to extreme lengths to pass his story, I think in most aspects it's not unreasonable. Extreme, but not unheard of.
With that being said, I have a few options to develope my character, and I'd like your opinion of them.
The first idea is my character is the firstborn. Upon his return, most of the household is ecstatic, the prodigal son has returned, etc. I apologize for not recalling who it was (Maybe Rax?) that wanted to play the secondborn son, an exemplary knight trying to prove his worth. This could lead to some interesting reactions, in which the 2nd born is being overshadowed by a character that wasn't a part of his life for most of his life, and all of a sudden gets all the credit, affection and support of everyone that the 2nd born worked years to gain and achieve.
I apologize if I got the concept wrong, I have yet to fully read everything still. Also, since this is the only other character concept out there at the moment, this is all I have to work with.
Another idea is having the firstborn actually a daughter, rather than a son. This would mean little to the 2nd born (which is actually the firstborn son, probably), but since my character was a ward in a Dornish house, this could create a different kind of conflict/interaction with the character, since in Dornish society daughters are eligible to inherit lands, titles and power like men. Her being the firstborn daughter gives her that right by Dornish culture. Which she grew up in. She will likely not get the same respect as the Knight, but she will definitely demand it, which will cause a different kind of stir in the family.
Yet another idea, I could go with someone who's not the firstborn. This would eliminate both previous ideas since my character will have no claim to power in any form. This will involve a probably more scandelous character, as they don't have the same 'responsibility' as a firstborn, in addition to being raised in a foreign culture. If any of you are familiar with The Umbrella Academy, this will likely be most similar to Klaus.
I can come up with other ideas, but I'd appreciate your input. Would also love to hear from the others that haven't spoken yet, if my possibly incestous character bothers them.
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HorizonsDream
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Post by HorizonsDream on May 1, 2021 15:11:14 GMT -8
I would have a problem with someone playing a rapist as a character.
When it comes to the incest character, were you planning on having that romance with an NPC or were you hoping to find a PC that would be willing to go with it?
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Post by Daos on May 1, 2021 22:29:01 GMT -8
And how...detailed...would this incestual relationship be? Are we talking a 'fade-to-black' sort of thing, just in the background, or are we talking graphic scenes?
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