Mag
Apprentice
Posts: 9
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Post by Mag on May 2, 2021 1:45:01 GMT -8
If a PC is interested, then a PC. If not, an NPC would work just as well.
I'm not intending for anything graphic, I believe this is also in line with what Igor is intending to do. Mostly fade-to-black as the scene starts. Maybe short of things like kissing. I have yet to discuss this further with Igor on what're the limits of what they're willing to allow to be on text/on forum and what not, but I assure you I have no intention of turning this into an ERP game.
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Post by Zero Prime on May 2, 2021 6:17:38 GMT -8
I was still hoping to play the second son, if the heir to House was held hostage by a Dornish House, it would make sense that we would have fought a battle with them at some point in the past. Now whether or not that battle was a victory is a matter for debate, perhaps the situation was resolved by the Baratheon's demanding the conflict be resolved, so we took as Ward a Dornish hostage as well. That may be interesting.
So if Mag was taken hostage, and we want to play on the unfamiliarity between these two brothers, perhaps there is a large age gap as well, maybe there are half brothers, in that Mag's was born under wife #1, who passed at child birth, then when our Lord remarried, second son was born under wife #2?
Also, as another player, wouldn't Mag have a d6 to bolster our houses fortunes in whichever category they wish?
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Rax
Dicemaster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Rax on May 2, 2021 6:49:59 GMT -8
If a PC is interested, then a PC. If not, an NPC would work just as well. I'm not intending for anything graphic, I believe this is also in line with what Igor is intending to do. Mostly fade-to-black as the scene starts. Maybe short of things like kissing. I have yet to discuss this further with Igor on what're the limits of what they're willing to allow to be on text/on forum and what not, but I assure you I have no intention of turning this into an ERP game. For my part, I suppose what I'm most interested in understanding is what you want to achieve by introducing this relationship? Is is to force some sort of crisis on the house at some point in the game? Because if it's a secret from everyone else and you manage to keep it a secret, it's not going to matter much in play. And if it comes out and causes problems for the house, the easiest way to deal with it is to disown or kill your character and his/her lover. That's sort of the point of Westerosi society - it's clan-based, and the clan's needs go before those of the individual clan member.
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Post by Igordragonian on May 2, 2021 11:49:29 GMT -8
Alright. Mag while we are discussing, please roll 1d6 (there should be a dice icon when you are writing a post) and choose one of Defence Influence Lands Law Population Power Wealth to improve. ----- As for scandal- we can make it a secret, and there is a more legitimate cover story, but if someone will care enough to investigate.. also also any preffer for a Liege Lord? by the area, we seems to agree, cannon houses, like Swann or Dondarion would fit the bill. As for a hostage, I think Horizon also wanted to involve dornish and piracy.. so maybe there is a dornish rival house, who act on piracy and slave trade, and our house have disturbed them. There even a cannon house which might fit the bill, as the lore about it vague, but they are in the right location, and also involved with a Swann character. awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Wylawoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Wyl
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Mag
Apprentice
Posts: 9
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Post by Mag on May 2, 2021 11:57:18 GMT -8
The way I see it, and I could be wrong, is that this game is all about family drama. This could very well be revealed to the world, and we end up dying, but if not, this is going to cause some inner crisis. Furthermore, the way I see it is that crisis promotes roleplay. It promotes character development, and advances events. Characters in crisis are in general more interesting than characters living in comfort. I could get rid of this idea, it won't change much for my character. I thought this could be added as another inter-player thing.
If I'm allowed a comparison, let's look at the Umbrella Academy once again. Without this crisis, we will be just like them. A bunch of siblings/characters, estranged to some degree or another, but united against the world. In this we will be basically 'waiting' for Igor to dish out plot hooks at us, introduce events and what not. The way I personally see this is that the characters are a reactive force in the game. They don't really do much on their own, unless something is thrown at them. They may advance their own little plots, but ultimately they are passive in a sense. By introducing some form of inter-player crisis, characters tend to be more active than reactive. Maybe the second son doesn't like this relationship, and he's going out of his way to do something about it (ideally not looking for player vs player combat, but maybe he's actively going to seek out a way to 'save' his sibling, by perhaps trying to arrange marriage for her in order to keep her away from this 'sick brother' of hers that's trying to romance her?). This will create more conversation between players, as they discuss amongst themselves how they view this relationship, with the involved parties or without them.
This is merely my view on the matter, feel free to disagree with me.
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Rax
Dicemaster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Rax on May 2, 2021 13:28:58 GMT -8
Igordragonian If we're going to establish our house on Cape Wrath, then the Dondarrions are bit too far to the west, I think. The Swanns seem a more likely liege. I was actually considering whether our house might be a bit on the shady side itself. For instance, having a port in a fairly secure and secluded location where smugglers and pirates can resupply and sell off some of their goods. We don't have to be pirates and smugglers ourselves, just willing to turn a blind eye to them and perhaps make use of them for our ends sometimes.
As for a rival house being involved in slavery, that's a seriously risky move. Slavery is outlawed in Westeros, including Dorne. Jorah Mormont was had to flee to the Free Cities for selling poachers into slavery. They'd have to be really greedy, really desperate, or really stupid to involve themselves in the slave trade. Mag I disagree that the game is all about family drama. It can be played that way, but that's only one way, and not my preferred style at all. To me, the house is the centre of the game and the PCs attempts to strengthen the house (or just maintain the status quo if we're in a good place) are what drives the action. Therefore, interaction with the wider world is what's needed to make the game interesting. That puts a heavy burden on the narrator, but what makes the game fun for me is interacting with the neighbouring houses and our liege lords. They need to be well detailed and have plots and plans of their own for us to aid or to foil. There can be a certain amount on drama within the PC house as well, but I find family drama between PCs to be hugely artificial. Westeros is a clan-based society and noble houses are not democracies. If someone in the house is doing something that's a threat to the standing of the house, and therefore everyone else in the house, then the head of the house is within his rights to exile that person or turn him over to the authorities to deal with. If there's a PC head of the house, then that basically forces him to either boot another player's PC from the game, or to contrive a reason to protect the PC from the consequences of his or her actions. I find neither particularly satisfying.
Or to put it in more general terms, I've been involved in multiple games that ran on the basis of drama for drama's sake, and they all left a bad taste in my mouth. Essentially, they always end up with the player willing to instigate drama first dictating the terms of the game, since everybody else then has to react in character to whatever dramatic action the first player came up with. At the same time, IME all responses to the drama are constrained by the unwritten rule that simply removing the drama PC in the most expedient manner is seen as trampling over that player's right to play his PC as he wishes. It creates a situation bordering on PvP without allowing a PvP resolution.
If you do want to instigate some sort of scandal, at the very least I'd encourage you to pick something less egregious than incest. Keep it on the level where other people in the house could conceivably be sympathetic to your position and you've moved the stakes from "death or exile is the only reasonable response" to "this is bad, but we can agree to keep this secret, right?"
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Post by Daos on May 3, 2021 15:19:25 GMT -8
Is the head of the household a playable position or is that relegated to an NPC?
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Post by Igordragonian on May 3, 2021 15:41:50 GMT -8
The book assume that the Lord is NPC. But I am open minded. I think that maybe they fear, that if one player has a character with an authority over other characters it might cause problems- but if we have an agreement about this is as a group, I don't mind at all.
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As for Dorne. I actually did research on them, and it's vagualy fan analysis/theory but I think that in many ways the dornish are reflecting the Ironborns. They are raiding a LOT. You especialy feel it in Fire&Blood book. Usually society, that raid so much, suffer from a seriouse economic weakness. They have unique tradition, that struggle to keep relevance in the face of the Andal tradition. They have deep ties to Esus. It isn't openly said, but I think it's likely they run a slave selling 'industry', and who would stop them? They are good at hiding things, and King Landing's influence over Dorne is very limited. ------
I think we can manage a more 'acceptable/tradtional' taboo relationship, if it can work well enough? But even without that, firstborn return after being a hostage and a strong secondborn can be a very intresting dynamics.
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So, are we up for house Swann as our Liege Lords? Or another house? Or preffer an original house?
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Post by Zero Prime on May 3, 2021 16:27:53 GMT -8
Swann works for me. Maybe my second born has a strong relationship with the Swann Household, perhaps even a marriage prospect, which would elevate the Houses position. But when his elder brother returns, suddenly the second born is precisely that, and what would have been an acceptable match is no longer, and any proposal is called off.
That could be especially poignant if there was some aspect of true love to the match with the Swann daughter.
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Rax
Dicemaster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Rax on May 3, 2021 21:51:01 GMT -8
The book assume that the Lord is NPC. But I am open minded. I think that maybe they fear, that if one player has a character with an authority over other characters it might cause problems- but if we have an agreement about this is as a group, I don't mind at all. That's not strictly true if a group decides to generate a noble house, as we've done. The head of house position is then explicitly open to a player, but he/she must buy the Head of House quality and buy Status rank as indicated by the house's Influence. However, it's also made clear in the description of the Head of House quality that you must have the permission of the Narrator and the other players to be the head of house.
Edit: Regarding what positions we're interested in, I was also considering applying for the house lord position, but if Daos really wants it, I can work up something else. I usually do some sort of fighter type, but I might toss my hat in the ring to be a maester or some sort of combination knight/schemer. It all depends very much on the tone we want for the house, however. If we want a straight arrow house, I won't throw in a shady, self-serving schemer, for instance.
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Post by HorizonsDream on May 3, 2021 22:31:58 GMT -8
Honestly, I don't think the head of the house should be a PC. I think it should be strictly NPC. I don't have a problem with the characters being the sons/daughters of the head of the house.
Aside from that, I'm cool with the Swann household.
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Post by Daos on May 4, 2021 15:42:26 GMT -8
I'm inclined to agree with Horizon; a player having the ability to execute, imprison or exile any of the other players is a pretty big power imbalance. So for funsies, I went ahead and booted up the Game of Thrones mod I have for Crusader Kings 2, and looked up House Swann. They run a region called Red Watch, and have two vassal families: House Lonmouth and House Horpe. There isn't much information, canonically, on either. But those are options, if we want to make our house at least semi-canonical. Also, Mag, did you need assistance in figuring out how the dice commands work?
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Post by Zero Prime on May 4, 2021 15:52:31 GMT -8
I'm good to say House Head shouldn't be a PC, but letting Rax play a member of the Household who has influence over the head of house. IE. If our father is of ill health, and Rax wants to play the Maester tending him or something along those lines.
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Post by Igordragonian on May 5, 2021 4:54:59 GMT -8
Alright. So let's put some order.
Our house will located at the Cape Of Wrath. Our liege House is Swann.
Zeroprime want to play as a secondborn and a knight. Possibly engaged with Swann's daughter.
Mag want to play as the heir who has returned lately from hostage.
As for Daos And Rax ..
well G.R.R Martin also like badass uncle chararters like Blackfish. And sure. Maybe the lord is sick or crippled Also, since we are the shore, it make sense we will have Master Of Ship/Port, so it could be another major character.
I think Horizion still didn't suggested a charactsr concept?
As for the house history-maybe we can keep it vague for my convience, if we don't have an agreement of something specific. maybe this is the point in game. and there is a sweet lie instead.
I imagined a motto like "Love Win All" and maybe a Cyvasse board and heart
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Rax
Dicemaster
Posts: 2,263
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Post by Rax on May 5, 2021 12:48:45 GMT -8
I've been thinking through a couple of different character concepts. On the shady side, I had three or four variants going:
1. The lord of the house, giving safe haven to smugglers and less egregious pirates in return for a cut of their profits. This has made him wealthier than the house's lands suggest (an excuse to take the Wealthy benefit). This concept could easily be rewritten as an uncle doing the same thing, either with or without the lord's knowledge. He could also be the port master/master of ships if no one else wants those roles.
2. A shady maester or advisor who's not a maester but studied at the Citadel. He's decided that asceticism and living off the largesse of the noble he serves isn't for him, so he uses his position to secretly build a criminal organisation of his own and has already built up a substantial fortune. He'd be an expert with good Cunning and Knowledge, as well as the Knowledge Focus (Underworld) and Wealthy benefits.
3. A relative - uncle works fine here - who's either a retired mercenary commander or possibly some sort of smuggler chief. He'd have the Cadre and Wealthy benefits to indicate his success and having a squad of toughs to back him up. This concept can easily merge with concept #1 by having an official position in the house.
4. A famous tourney knight with a dash of schemer about him. He makes a living winning or placing highly in tournaments, but he's also a smooth talker and a liar. Benefits would be Courteous, Treacherous and Tourney Knight. This concept would be useful if we have a shortage of traditional knightly sorts that could represent us in tournaments.
On the very straightforward side, I have a character from another game that never got off the ground. He's a simple knight or warrior, possibly the house champion. He's deadly with the axe (Axe Fighter I and II) but his most standout feature is having Endurance 6 and Blood of the First Men to have a huge Health pool. I know I suggested keeping ability ranks to 4 or 5 max, but Endurance isn't an ability that's used for all that much other than resisting damage of various sorts, and the basic idea of this character is to see if he can win battles by attrition rather than having sky high defences. This character was envisioned as a decent family man with no great ambitions of his own, so if "shady" isn't a direction we want to go in, he'd fit right in. On the other hand, he could easily be redone as a brutal enforcer as well.
Right now, I'm kind of swinging in favour of adapting the house lord to being an uncle and possibly combining him with concept number 3, unless other players feel that would step on their toes or drag the house in a direction they're not happy with.
Regarding the house itself, in yet another game that never got off the ground our house was going to be called House Hooke, and our motto was "By Hook and Crook", harking back to the founder having humble beginnings and also being ready to do what it takes to maintain and improve his house's standing. Would that name be acceptable?
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