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Post by Daos on Oct 19, 2023 19:32:02 GMT -8
Well, maybe not so much A Good Thing as Not A Bad Thing. I like it when D&D parties are varied, with the characters feeling unique and distinct from each other. That could be done with a party of mostly Humans if you had experienced roleplayers who were able to really breathe life into their characters, but most of the time a PC boils down to a race/class combo and a few personality traits, in my experience (with in-person D&D at least). More to the point, I don't think it's a problem if the party composition doesn't reflect the population of the setting. Mostly humans may be normal, but adventurers are hardly normal people! Yes, I mostly agree. It's not the end of the world or anything if the party is lacking in humans. It's just a pattern I've noticed over the years, and something I think about often, as someone whose favorite race is human. But I recognize that makes me an outlier. I think using the makeup of the Heroes of the Lance creates a false perception..humans are always the protagonists in fantasy stories because they're easier to relate to, so of course in a narrative setting they'd chose mostly humans to give someone to the readers to identify with. I see your point, but it's worth pointing out that while the Heroes of the Lance are mostly known from the books, they were originally an actual adventuring party. The books were based on a real D&D game. They deviated a bit, especially over time, but yeah, the original party were rolled up like any other. if you want to make humans more palatable maybe instead of limiting the others, you can give them something else to make them more versatile? There are no feats in 2e but maybe they could gain proficiencies (both weapons and non) faster? Maybe start with 1 each more, and then gain them at smaller intervals than the other races? Like a human rogue gaining them every 3 levels, instead of 4? I thought about this myself, but I wasn't sure if it would be enough. Proficiencies aren't that hard to acquire; most kits give away several for free. But it is something to consider. 1st one, let's keep things simple: as I said I think it would be nice if priests had a nwp equivalent to a mage's cantrips. How did you call them..Orisons? That should be doable. Except unlike cantrips, orisons aren't a thing in 2E, so I'd need to come up with them from scratch. So it might take some time, but I could probably come up with something eventually. That said, is it necessary? Cantrips are useful as mages have so few options at low levels, but clerics don't have that problem. They have decent weapons and armor, granted powers, and far more spell slots. 2nd one, the healing spells thing inspired by pathfinder: the healing spells tax is what turned playing a cleric into a hazing ritual for the last guy that joins the table..no more! As I said, it would make the game less frustrating for who wants to play a priest if they could just turn each of their prepared spells into a healing spell of the corresponding level. I don't think it would break the game, after all..the priest still has to sacrifice one of their spell, they still have to make a tactical choice of which spell to keep and which way to turn into a CLW. Implementing this should be easy enough, but I'm skeptical it would solve the problem you're highlighting here. Under the core system, a cleric feels like they have to load up on healing spells to keep their party alive. With this new system, would they not have the same problem? But instead of memorizing healing spells, they just are converting all of their non-healing spells into healing spells instead? 3rd one, please lower the identify price ;_; 1000 is just too much, especially for the rhythm we're earning money (in the other game, at least). Even in the videogames Identify "only" cost 100..and there is much more money around there. Identify does cost 100 GP. Or rather, it consumes a pearl of that value. Or did you mean the price of paying an NPC to cast it for you? I think the reason NPC spellcasters are so expensive is to encourage players to do their own spellcasting when they can, but also as a gold sink. I notice later editions are much worse at this than 2E was. There are fewer gold sinks in 3E and 5E, so players accumulate mountains of treasure with nothing to really spend it on. (I notice they seem to be trying to fix that now in 5E, introducing strongholds, for instance.) I'll consider lowering it, but probably not to 100. That would mean the NPC mage is casting at cost. They lose several hours (if not the entire day) from the prep time and the spell fatigue and make zero profit off of it. Kind of a bad deal for them. Maybe 500 or something. I think that's all tbh, I'm still not familiar enough with the edition to really contribute much more ideas, especially since I have only experience with the priest class. Yeah, and specialty priests at that. You haven't actually played a Cleric, and they're one of the more powerful classes in the game, ironically enough. Decent HP, can heal, better spell slots, armor and weapon choices than mages, and pretty versatile. They don't reach the level of CoDzilla like in 3E, but still fairly potent class. |
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Post by Daos on Oct 20, 2023 9:47:47 GMT -8
Next up is Dwarves.
I've gone back and forth on sub-races for this setting. Originally, I had them. Then I got rid of them, partly because I felt like there were too many of them (which can cause choice paralysis in players) and also partly because I thought it would make my setting more unique. Now I've brought them back, but with a twist. The idea is that each demi-human race has a different sub-race on each continent. This makes them feel more distinct, ties them into the setting better, and cuts down on choice paralysis. Such is the case with dwarves.
Gontoria: Hill Dwarves
Crizzara: Mountain Dwarves
Rabbah: Deep Dwarves
Octhania: Sundered Dwarves
Renosia: Grey Dwarves (Duergar)
As we're currently in Renosia, I'll mostly be focused on Duergar. Duergar are pretty powerful, as sub-races go. This is largely because they were not created to be playable; they were created to be powerful enemies and were sort of crammed into a playable race later. Their big XP penalty helps a bit in balancing them out, though, as does their sunlight sensitivity and CHA penalty.
Like all dwarves, by core they are limited to Fighters, Clerics and Thieves. For this game, I greatly expanded their options, opening up Demi-Paladins, Demi-Barbarians, Demi-Shaman and Demi-Bards.
I guess I don't have much else to say about dwarves. They're a staple for D&D, always have been. I don't think they need any further tweaking, but what do the rest of you think?
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Post by Daos on Oct 21, 2023 9:26:23 GMT -8
Next up is Elves.
Like with Dwarves, I set it up so that each continent has a different sub-race of them. Which was easy enough, as elves had so many back in 2E (and amazingly, even more of them nowadays). In fact, I had to double up a bit on Crizzara, but Avariel are super rare.
Gontoria: High Elves
Crizzara: Sylvan Elves and Winged Elves (Avariel)
Rabbah: Grey Elves
Octhania: Aquatic Elves
Renosia: Dark Elves (Drow)
As we're currently in Renosia, I'll mostly be focused on Drow. Like Duergar, Drow are ridiculously powerful, as they were not initially meant to be playable. They get some huge penalties to try and balance then out, though.
Elves have a much better selection of classes that most races. Nevertheless, I expanded this a bit for them, allowing them limited access to Bards, as well as Demi-Paladins, Demi-Barbarians and Demi-Shaman.
About the only thing I'm thinking of changing for Drow is expanding their infravision range. They get 90', but Duergar and Svirfneblin get 120' and I'm not sure why theirs would be any better. Other than that, they seem fine as they are for now, although I might change my mind since we have three in this game and I'll get to see them in action after awhile.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
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Post by GravityEmblem on Oct 21, 2023 10:27:06 GMT -8
Well, this is something that's bothered me for a while, but some of the racial ability adjustments don't really make sense to me? They feel very...arbitrary, tacked on for balance reasons--especially the penalties. Like, why do Drow get negative Charisma? Why do the poor Svirfneblin get minus Intelligence? Why do all the different Genasi get a bunch of different ability adjustments? I guess it makes some degree of sense now that I sit down and think about it; mostly if you measure Charisma by "default" surface/humanoid society standards. And I suppose 5E isn't really less arbitrary in that way, but it was something that stuck out to me when I was making my character that I wanted to bring up, even as I rapidly lose confidence in the legitimacy of my complaint.  |
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Post by Daos on Oct 21, 2023 10:52:18 GMT -8
Sometimes the books spell out exactly why a particular bonus or penalty is applied. Other times they don't, and one is left to guess. Sometimes it's for lore reasons, sometimes it's for balance reasons, sometimes it probably is arbitrary.
Drow get a CHA penalty because they are arrogant, cruel and have 'grating personalities' according to the book. Also, Charisma's largest role in 2E is to determine how NPCs react to you, and most people fear and hate the Drow due to their reputation, so them having a penalty works pretty well with that, as well, even if they do not fit into that particular mold.
The books do not explain why Svirfneblin get an INT penalty. But my guess is because of their lore. They tend to be miners, obsessed with gemstones, which is blue-collar work. So they probably don't spend a lot of time reading. But that's just my guess. It could be something else entirely.
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Matt4
Paragon
Posts: 3,545
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Post by Matt4 on Oct 21, 2023 12:06:31 GMT -8
What I find funny is that in 5e they get a positive bonus to charisma lol so there's that.
I don't know what to add to the races (I don't even know what a Demi-class is tbh), the infravision change seem sensible.
As for the answers to my previous post:
1) I went and check to see if anyone else had already did some work on it, and I actually found that Orisons already officially exist in 2E! There is a list of them in "Spell and Magic" in the Priest spells section.
I don't understand the 'is this necessary?' question..? I just think cantrips are fun and creative to use..
2) If they found themselves in a situation where all they need are healing spells...I suppose they would. But it still leave them more freedom during the "preparing spells" phase, and if they don't find themselves in that situation, they have their other spells they can use. Do you think there are other, more viable, solutions?
3) I understand, but we don't really need a gold sink..do we? We're hardly finding any money at all.. But yeah, 500 would still be better than 1000 at least, thanks.
and what's CoDzilla?
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Post by Daos on Oct 21, 2023 16:29:05 GMT -8
A demi-class, as the name suggests, is a sort of kit that can be applied to allow a lesser version of a class to be applied to a race that usually can't take it. The demi-class does not come with all of the features, but it has enough of them that it feels like the original class. It was meant as something of a compromise between those who wanted to keep things the way they were and those who wanted to open up some of the class restrictions. I wasn't aware of the orisons thing. Spells and Magic is a Player's Option book, and I never use those, so that explains why I hadn't heard of it. I do have a pdf of that one, though, which I used to introduce Cure Moderate Wounds and Sunscorch, so I can go check it out when I find the time. It's true the party hasn't acquired any gold yet, but to be fair...we literally just started at level 1. The party hasn't completed a single quest or even fought a single encounter yet. As for CoDzilla, it was a 3E term. It stood for Cleric or Druid (with the -zilla being a Godzilla reference), and it was referencing the fact that those two classes were so incredibly overpowered back in that edition. And that you asked me that made me feel very old. |
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Post by Daos on Oct 22, 2023 14:12:56 GMT -8
Okay, a quick review of the past week:
1.) Character Generation; either 4d6 drop the lowest, arrange to taste OR 3d6 down the line, possibly with some kind of incentive for the latter.
2.) Level Limits are out.
3.) Humans (possible ways to incentivize playing them)
4.) Orisons for clerics (Matt)
5.) Spontaneous healing for clerics (Matt)
6.) Identify cheaper (Matt)
7.) Dwarves are fine as they are
8.) Elves; Drow get better infravision
I'm going to spend some time working on these. As I said before, any changes made won't affect this game, just future Lost Souls games.
But anyone who wants to can continue discussing these topics, or others, if they like. But just wanted to give a head's up that my going quiet for a bit isn't because I'm giving up or anything.
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Matt4
Paragon
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Post by Matt4 on Oct 23, 2023 14:04:32 GMT -8
Well, I hope that some of the changes are implemented... 👀
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Post by Daos on Oct 24, 2023 10:59:48 GMT -8
Some of them will.
I've actually been doing some thinking and realized that whenever a change was proposed, I would find myself conflicted over it. Because I'm torn between adapting the game to be more accessible for younger people and providing an authentic 2E experience.
But after thinking on it, I've decided that I'll sort of do both. My Lost Souls and Dragonlance games will be my more story oriented games, modified to be more palatable to modern audiences (while keeping the parts of 2E I like), while my Module Matinee games will be more dedicated to an authentic 2E experience, as the characters and stories are far more disposable.
So with regards to character generation--I'll probably stick to '4d6, drop the lowest, arrange to taste' for my Lost Souls and Dragonlance games (and if someone wants to do 'down the line' that is always an option, of course) and change Module Matinee to '3d6 down the line' to make things interesting.
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Matt4
Paragon
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Post by Matt4 on Oct 24, 2023 16:39:14 GMT -8
Hmm, that could work to keep everyone happy. And it leaves an opportunity for the players who wants the "true" 2E experience as well.
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Post by Daos on Oct 25, 2023 8:06:19 GMT -8
And in keeping with that spirit, I'm not going to worry about Humans, either. If I feel they are being under-represented, I can always just make most of the henchmen Human.
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Post by Daos on Nov 13, 2023 21:12:28 GMT -8
Still working on the cleric stuff. Where did we leave off? Oh, right. Gnomes.
Like with elves and dwarves, I set it up so that each continent has a different sub-race of them.
Gontoria: Rock Gnomes
Crizzara: Spriggan Gnomes
Rabbah: Tek Gnomes
Octhania: Forest Gnomes
Renosia: Deep Gnomes (Svirfneblin)
As we're currently in Renosia, I'll mostly be focused on Svirfneblin. Like the other 'Underdark' races, they're pretty powerful, but are one of the only ones not usually associated with Evil. Nobody has ever played one in any of my games, so I've never been able to see how well they work out in-game. I opened up their class choices a bit, though, allowing for demi-rangers and demi-bards.
I don't really see anything about them that needs to change. But again, I've never seen them in action, only on paper.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
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Post by Daos on Nov 14, 2023 20:37:30 GMT -8
What's next? Halflings.
Like with the others, I set it up so that each continent has a different sub-race of them.
Gontoria: Hairfoot Halflings
Crizzara: Furchin Halflings
Rabbah: Stout Halflings
Octhania: Tallfellow Halflings
Renosia: Skelm Halflings
As we're currently in Renosia, I'll mostly be focused on Skelms. They're sort of my own version of Athasian Halflings. In 2E, halflings have a very specific vibe to them. Pastoral, homey, friendly, outgoing. Salt of the earth. So I guess the idea of brutal reaver halflings was pretty amusing to me when I first created them.
I opened up their class choices a bit, allowing for demi-rangers, demi-bards and demi-barbarians.
Mechanically, I wasn't sure what to do with them. The ability to heal by eating people (at the cost of NPC reactions dropping) was the best I could come up with (and it's largely stolen from the Fallout games), but I'm not overly happy with it. I'd like to make them a bit more mechanically distinct, but I haven't come up with much else since. They probably need an overhaul. Nobody's ever played one before, so like with Svirfneblin, I haven't really seen them in action.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
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Post by Daos on Nov 15, 2023 21:06:15 GMT -8
Half-Elves are next.
Like with full Elves, each continent has a different variety. Mechanically, however, all half-elves are exactly the same. It might be fun to make them a bit more mechanically distinct, though. Like maybe half-drow have better infravision, half sea-elves have limited water breathing, etc.
What do you all think? Any ideas?
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