Modding 2E (Lost Souls)

[Igordragonian]

Death genasi sound so edgy.
Are they related to Kahyel genies?

Gnoll used to be my favorite race, my first character of d&d (3.5 actually) was a gnoll.

and that part of the thing-
3.5 had a system to balance stronger races...

usually in 2e the balance is "You cant reach above level 10"

[Daos]

No, Death Genasi (also called Negatai or Sceptres of Unlife) are those who are touched by the Negative Energy Plane.  Which is where all necrotic energy comes from.

And yeah, some of the balancing effects in 2E are so harsh as to just make the race unplayable.  Which makes one wonder why they bothered trying to make them playable in the first place.

Anyway, I'm ready to move on to Classes next.  And I might as well start with the big one--racial restrictions on class.  I can probably just get rid of it altogether.  That is, allow any race to be any class.  I've done it before, so I know it's not unbalancing or anything.  The main downside is, like with level limits, it takes away from Humans, making them even less useful.  With neither level limits or racial restrictions, there is no mechanical reason to ever choose Human over literally anything else.

[Igordragonian]

Maybe the humans should have a positive bonus.

Like lowering the XP requirment for level up, so they level up faster- so humans on average will be on higher level, but it doesnt feel punishing to play inhumans.

Class restriction can be more of fluff-lore.

Dwarves arent likely to be mages,and their society has stigmas against it.

[Daos]

That could be feasible.  Something like a 5-10% bonus to XP when playing Human.  To reflect that humans are adaptable and quick to learn new things.

As for today's post, we'll start with Fighters.  Many people view Fighters as boring, because they don't have the flashier skills or abilities or spells of other classes.  But I've always seen them as reliable, and essential.  Fighters start the game as arguably the strongest of the classes--the best HP, AC, and equipment selection.  They do get left behind eventually, at higher levels, but that's the trade off.  They're easy to play, and you can never have too many in a party.

I don't know if there's anything I'd change about them.  The only thing I'd consider is possibly adding Weapon Mastery.  This would help them keep up a bit at later levels.  The downside, though, is I feel it discourages versatility.  It, mechanically speaking, makes more sense to dump all of your WP slots into one weapon then, instead of having a variety of different ones.  Plus, my games tend not to get much higher than level 7 anyway (and with pbps, that takes half a decade to reach), so I'm not sure it'd even matter.

But anyway, what do you all think of Fighters?

[Igordragonian]

I remember when I ran 2e, I tried to homebrew "battle tricks"- something parallel to spells.
It wasnt great.

Stuff like blocking missiles like monks do.

5e did it better with the superiority abilities.

Or.. I had a general homebrew, that the main weapon "level up" due to great deeds-

My logic was

the sword that has cutted a dragon's head, become a legend!
Now it is the Sword Of Servantus The Noble!!!

But it actually was a 1+,and only because a mage has enchanted it.

So usually I gave new abilities to the weapon that are only aviable for the rightful owner of the sword  (so you cant just steal it or even borrow it and to enjoy it"s full power)
For  example, a sword that cutted a red dragon"s head get +1 fire damage and only for the rightful owner- fire bolt or something once a day.

so its the fighter's glory the enchant the weapon.


Also, I didnt tried it, but inspired by Bewulf-
the ability to consume monster's heart and some of it"s power.
And only the fighters would have the fortitude for it.


3.5 and PF also had cool options-
so maybe something like "titan grip" as special WP which allow you to hold two handed weapon in one hand.
Or enhanced range-
like Hercules in the myth who has intimidated the sun with bow and arrow.


Also maybe immunities to certain types of damage  and magic.

If mages have stop time and wish, I dont think

.

[Daos]

I've done something similar in the past--where a particularly heroic or epic act can infuse a weapon with magic.  Although there's usually a great cost to it.

Next up is Paladins.

I don't have much to say about Paladins.  I've experimented a bit with them in the past.  Altering the way Detect Evil works, or trying to give them a smite ability.  But neither really worked out.  I'd probably leave them alone, for the most part.

What do you all think of Paladins?

[Igordragonian]

I dont have real exprience with them- only while playing Baldur Gate.
(My players were too murder hobo-ish to play paladins)
They are slightly better then fighters with RP restrictions...
I personally dont have thoughts about them

[Daos]

Next up are Rangers.

Honestly, I don't have any thoughts on them, either.  I think they're probably fine as they are.  Anyone else have any opinions about them?

[Igordragonian]

Never had personal exprience with them.
On paper they seems fine to me

[Daos]

Okay, a quick review of what we have so far:

01.) Character Generation; 4d6 drop the lowest, arrange to taste
02.) Level Limits are out.
03.) Humans get an XP bonus
04.) Orisons for clerics (Matt)
05.) Spontaneous healing for clerics (Matt)
06.) Identify cheaper (Matt)
07.) Dwarves are fine as they are
08.) Elves; Drow get better infravision
09.) Gnomes are fine as they are
10.) Halflings possibly need revision
11.) Half-Elves made more mechanically distinct
12.) Goblins might need a little work
13.) Hobgoblins have redundant organs?
14.) Tieflings are fine as they are
15.) Genasi are fine as they are.
16.) Miscellaneous races are fine as they are.
17.) Removal of racial restrictions on classes.
18.) Fighters are fine as they are.
19.) Paladins are fine as they are.
20.) Rangers are fine as they are.

I'm going to spend some time working on these. As I said before, any changes made won't affect this game, just future Lost Souls games.

But anyone who wants to can continue discussing these topics, or others, if they like. But just wanted to give a head's up that my going quiet for a bit isn't because I'm giving up or anything.

[Daos]

Oh, right, I meant to update this today and completely forgot.  Well, half an hour before bed, there's still some time.

Where did we leave off?  Oh, right.  Mages.

I had two things for mages.  Basically, I wanted to make Cantrips and Find Familiar class abilities, instead of spells.

In Module Matinee, I made Cantrips into NWPs, but in retrospect, I think it's a little weird that even a high level mage still has to make a proficiency check to cast a cantrip or it fizzles out.  So I'm thinking they'll work exactly as they do here, but no roll is needed for them.  Once you run out of them, they're gone until you rest.

Likewise, with Find Familiar, in the past I have found that familiars are so useless and so risky that nobody ever really used them.  I had some old rules I used back in the day that I managed to dig up for them to make them a bit more appealing:  At level 2, a mage can summon a familiar automatically, even if they don't know the spell (still requires the material components, however). At level 4, the caster can see through the familiar's eyes if they concentrate and do nothing else. At 6th level, the caster can cast touch-spells through their familiar. Then at 8th level, the caster's familiar gains a special ability (depending on what the familiar in question is, e.g., a bat might get a sonic attack).

That's all I have for now, but what do you all think of these potential changes?

[Igordragonian]

Well, I play Parra and enjoy the cantrips.
On one hand, I enjoy the roll- and in general maybe magic in general should be a skill roll.
But it is a big change.

On the second, cantrips action economy wise are risky.. but I think that ok.

Maybe they require a skill roll up to a certain level?

Maybe mages get some signature cantrips they do without a roll?

The familiar sound better. Yeah

[Daos]

I don't think cantrips will be too unbalancing.  They're not designed to be used in combat; they aren't capable of dealing damage.  They're mostly just to give a little flavor to spellcasters.

Next up are Specialist Wizards.  The new rules for cantrips and familiars would apply to them, as well, although the familiar feature would not be allowed to anyone who had Conjuration/Summoning barred from their schools of magic.  So Diviners and Invokers.

I like Specialist Wizards, but I've always felt they needed more distinction from regular mages.  All of their differences are mostly subtle, like better saving throws and different spell selection.  For instance, let's say an enchanter joined the party.  Would anyone be able to tell that they were an enchanter without explicitly being told that?  Sure, they'd never cast Fireball or Magic Missile, but it's possible they just didn't know those spells.

The Complete Wizard's Handbook added several new abilities for Specialist Wizards.  But they were all set at high levels.  Really high levels.  Like...17-20.  Way higher than any game I've ever run or probably ever will run.  And weirdly enough, they aren't terribly powerful.  You'd think a class ability you'd unlock at level 17 would be something spectacular, but...some of them are pretty weak.  So I'm thinking I might lower the level you get them at.  I'm not sure which levels, though.  These are the abilities and levels from the book:

Abjurer - At 17th level, they become immune to all hold spells and add a +1 bonus when saving against poison, paralyzation and death magic.  At 20th level, their natural AC raises from 10 to 9.

Transmuter - At 17th level, they receive one extra NWP wizard proficiency of their choice.  At 20th level, they receive...another extra NWP wizard proficiency of their choice.  Yeah.

Conjurer/Summoner - At 17th level, they no longer require material components when casting conjuration/summoning spells.  At 20th level, they gain the ability to instantly dispel summoned creatures up to 10 HD worth (but no creature can be higher than 5 HD) three times a day.

Enchanter - At 17th level, they become immune to all charm spells.  At 20th level, they gain the ability to cast Free Action once a day, without using a spell slot or material components (casting time 1, range touch, duration 1 hour).

Diviner - At 17th level, they become immune to all forms of scrying, whether by spell or item.  At 19th level, they can cast Find Traps three times a day without using spell slots or verbal or material components.  At 20th level, they can cast Divination once a day without the use of a spell slot, verbal or material components.

Illusionist - At 18th level, they get a +1 to save against illusions cast by non-illusionists.  At 20th level, they can cast Dispel Illusion three times a day with a casting time of 1, a range of 30 yards, and no spell slots or components (of any kind) are needed.

Invoker/Evoker - At 17th level, they gain a +1 to saves against invocation/evocation spells and items.  At 20th level, they gain another +1 save against invocation/evocation spells and items.

Necromancer - At 17th level, they gain a +1 to saves against necromancy spells and items.  At 20th level, they can cast Speak with Dead once a day without the use of a spell slot, verbal or material components.

So, yeah, as you can see, some of those are pretty good.  And some are straight up garbage.  They're also way too high level.  I'm thinking of maybe dropping the requirements for them by 10 levels.  So instead of 17th level, it would come at 7th level.  Which is basically 'end game' for me.  I might also want to change some of them, because they aren't really all that interesting.  Like extra proficiencies or saving throw bonuses.  Likewise, total spell immunity to an entire school might be overpowered at lower levels, so I might need to nerf some, as well, if I'm lowering their requirements.  Maybe full immunity to first level spells from that school, for instance.

What do you all think?

[GravityEmblem]

That all sounds good!

[Daos]

Next topic is Clerics.

I've gone back and forth with them over the years.  My original games included them.  Then I swapped them out for Specialty Priests.  Then I swapped them back in, but tweaked their granted powers a bit to make them more distinctive (for instance, a Cleric of Octhanus might get Lay on Hands as a class ability).  For this game, I decided to be really weird and included both Clerics and Specialty Priests at the same time.  So one can be a Cleric of the gods in general or follow a specific god as a Specialty Priest.  Not sure how that will work out yet.  I should probably just commit to one or the other at some point.

Regardless, we'll talk about Specialty Priests tomorrow.  For today, it's about Clerics.

Outside of Matt's suggestions, I don't really have much to say about Clerics, though.  They're a potent class.  They can heal, have decent equipment and HP, good saves and can turn undead.  Honestly, I don't think they require much improvement.  But clearly Matt disagrees, so let's move on to his suggestions.

First, spontaneous healing.  As I've said before, I've gone back and forth on this.  My main concern is that I feel that part of the strategy of Vancian casting is deciding on which spells you might need each day.  While this move doesn't completely negate that, it does make it considerably easier.  I'm also concerned it makes a powerful class even more powerful and doesn't actually address the problem Matt wants it to fix (that a player playing a cleric feels obligated to load up on healing spells).  I suspect this new system would just make the player obligated to not use any of their non-healing spells in case they need to convert them into healing later.

But I don't know...I guess we can try it out next game, see how well it works.  Assuming anyone plays a Cleric next game, that is.

I'll probably have some stipulations, though.  Like only Good clerics can do it; Evil clerics can only spontaneously cast Inflict Wounds spells (and Neutral clerics can pick one at character creation, their choice).  This rule may apply to Specialty Priests, but not to other divine casters (Paladins, Rangers, Druids).  Also, it probably goes without saying, but you cannot convert spell slots for levels that have no Cure/Inflict Wound spells, like third level, for instance.

Next up is Orisons.  As Matt pointed out, they exist in Spells and Powers already, so I gave them a look.  They are actually a 1st level spell, like Cantrip.  So I'd probably just make them a class ability like I'm doing with cantrips.

However, I've determined I cannot use the ones in the book.  They are way too powerful for my tastes.  They can also directly influence combat, which would not only give Clerics a further leg up over Mages, but empower an already very powerful class.  Most give bonuses to saving throws or other rolls, and one can even heal 1 HP per use.  So I think I'm going to have to sit down and write up my own orisons.  I'll probably divide them into spheres, the way cantrips are divided into schools.  Which will take some time, so it might not be ready for awhile, but I'll keep you updated on the matter.

Anyone have any thoughts on Clerics or on the proposed changes to them?